Internet Shills: Beware of the Fake Debate. What to keep in mind before engaging with anti-gay rhetoric.
by pinkagendist
I never get tired of telling this story because I think it’s an extraordinary depiction of psycho-social manipulation. Back in 2004/2005 when we were campaigning for gay marriage in Spain, we had the wind at our backs. Public support fluctuated between 65 and 70%. Support in those under 40 was even higher. The internet and social media reflected those figures. Which is why we were so shocked when it seemed like the internet had been flooded by a tsunami of anti-gay propaganda.
To make a long story short. Two Spanish anti-gay groups called Hazteoir (make yourself heard) and the Foro de la Familia had gone to bed with American Evangelical Anti-Gay organizations. Not only were they now pushing the same tired propaganda, but they’d gone so far as to set up (as in hire) people to spread their message of hate and exclusion.
Their organization and method which helped them cause such a stir was also their downfall. Just as recently exposed by the French press in the case of the anti-gay and artificial Manif pour Tous, their message was scripted. And when I say scripted, I mean like this:
click here for the entire French version of the script
The contrived tone of their message, the propagation of debunked myths and their inability to respond to anything outside the script meant that soon enough people were onto what was going on. They were shills and puppets on one side, and on the other manipulators bent on using xenophobia to make a personal profit.
Their conniving isn’t limited to internet forums. Most recently, in the case of the anti-gay Manif pour Tous in France, they announced they were made up of the members of 37 organizations representing all sectors of French society. Le Monde took a closer look at those claims only to discover that 11 of those groups didn’t exist at all. Of those that did exist, only 15 had any sort of legal status. And of the one’s that had legal status, all were linked to religious or extremist right wing movements. So much for being representative of French society!
2013 Pew Poll. Not quite in line with what the Manif pour Tous want you to think. And BTW ¡¡¡Viva España!!!
All of this is to say beware. Their methods are many. Astro-turfing, click-baiting, fabricating controversy et al. Their success depends on their fraudulent activities being given air-time, so my suggestion is not giving them what they want. Or at least don’t do it on their terms. If you want to respond to something, do it your own way, on your own territory. Otherwise you’re giving them a platform and driving traffic to their nefarious message.
Here’s something to make you laugh and cry. Anti-gay propaganda at its very best/worst.
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/catholic-nun-students-masturbation-makes
The tragedy is that there will be people ignorant enough to buy that garbage.
And that’s why it persists.
Now if only you had stars on here, I could have given you one star without even reading your post. More sheep. Lemmings. Or whatever.
While I understand the tactics, (why would I not, I would recommend it myself), I am dismayed that our society has sunk so low ie that people are incapable of weighing up all the points and making up their own mind.
I was older than 40 in 2004/5. I would still have supported gay marriage despite my ancient status. Doubt my older Spanish neighbours would though.
The Le Monde article was good, although to be fair I only scanned it seeing as you had pulled out the key points.
After our recent conversation about engaging – or not – with religious zealots, this is an interesting point of view. It goes close to my golden PR rule of not engaging/replying to another point of view if you don’t think it merits it, because all that does is elevate the initial viewpoint as worthy of debate. Which was probably behind my comments about not commenting on religious blogs (even though I am waiting for Bigot’s reply about discrimination).
There is a very fine line though between deciding to engage and ignoring something. Or employing different tactics, which is usually my recommendation.
Did you see this incidentally, re Arab Spring?
http://dmitryev.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/the-art-of-arab-spring/
When you didn’t engage with her it made me think…
Then there were all the comments by non-wordpress people. Then repeated references to the manif pour tous material. Then I took a step back and decided to review the case 🙂
Various red flags. She registered the website name. Paid extra to hide the registrar’s info on whois. And the entire site is simply the orchestrated parroting of Christian right propaganda. It’s either a shill to manipulate opinion, or it’s a private business venture designed by an opportunist who intends to make money by fueling xenophobia of various forms- so you were right to stay away.
I agreed with your point about dissent. But there are discussions to have and those not to waste time on, unless you want some light relaxation.
I didn’t reply to Bigot because it didn’t merit it. Simple as that. Plus, her first reply to me was rude to both of us and she had made a totally wrong assumption about our behaviour and our characters. For absolutely no reason. Do you need back-up? Am I an underling? I don’t think so to both of those.
By the time she came back with some insignificant whatever, I had written her off for her rude response and disrespectful assumptions.
I did ask her today how World Vision can legally discriminate against same-sex married couples, mainly because I am interested in knowing how the church can circumvent the law against discrimination.
I back-read some posts today on her’s today. (It was Clare’s fault because she mentioned her on her post and Ms Sweetness and Light commented on Clare’s about the state wanting marriage in order to produce children which had me groaning). I did get some enjoyment from reading Ark’s comments on Bigot’s.
But why are we all making this woman’s blog popular, or at least adding to her comments? Leave her alone, I say. If you find the info to pull her to pieces, good one. She’s a drop in the ocean and an insignificant one at that. Better we find other ways to campaign against such narrow-minded and intolerant pieces of work. I don’t want them to pray for me. I want them to get right out of my life and everyone else’s.
Oh the joys of the Christian right. I’m a non-Christian and still more Christian than many of them. I have a simple policy to live by and that’s Live and Let Live ( as long as it hurt no-one). I think I should return to my Buthidar Religion of Hugs and start stealing Christian souls again of which I was once accused on Facebook.
Hugs
Your policy doesn´t generate the money they´re after…
I have been pleased to see homophobic blogs where there are only two comments, yours attacking the position from a rational perspective and mine from a Christian one. The Bigot is incorrigible, but it might be possible to demotivate some of the others.
There is great breadth to the philosophy of life in Christianity, and some might even be persuadable: they are supposed to value all that stuff, after all. Only the worst see their view of homosexuality as the most important doctrine of all.
I’ll be interested to hear if you find anything else about that blog. There’s something entirely disingenuous about the host’s loving tone: so sickly sweet then veering into snide and sarcastic. It’s difficult to tell how much is down to the editor and how much is down to general fakeness. As for the rest of the ‘characters’ that jump in, they could just be friends – I doubt they have the talent to create diverse voices.
If previous cases I’ve encountered are anything to go by, these people come in two basic forms. The delusional crusader, and the paid crusader. Both (ab)use anonymity and have very ‘convenient’ cover stories about their lives and/or why they have this unusual fixation on homosexuality.
Her ‘my mother is a lesbian and I’m terribly hurt story’ is one I’ve seen so many times, if they were true, Lesbian mothers would represent 80% of the population 🙂
The whole thing is a scam.
How much would you like to know? Her real name is Katy Faust. Her husband’s name is Ryan Faust and he’s the senior pastor at one of those typically hateful Evangelical propaganda machines: http://www.gracechurchseattle.org/#/welcome/staff
It’s so sect-like, that you have to sign a covenant to be considered for membership and then submit an application:
I’m still investigating the role of the blog in all of this… but as you can see I don’t mince around, so I’ll have an answer soon enough 🙂
Oh yes, I remember PR Faust popping up to comment in previous posts, clearly hubby of the editor M Faust. He actually has his own blog, I’ll ask Hewho if he was too afraid to go public when Ark asked him …
That doesn’t explain why Hewho’s email name is Joel A Manning and he used to work for Starbucks. But it does explain why PR Faust has stopped commenting on the Bigot’s blog since Hewhoshallnotbenamed started (I think). Is Katy Faust not the editor, rather than the blog host? PR Faust has his own blog too:
http://prfaust.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/ad-homenim-atheist-strikes-back/
Thanks for that. Every bit of info helps. I’ll comment more in detail tomorrow. What’s quite clear now is that they’re operating a business venture, much like a mafia racket.
I was going to give her a warning, but then I decided it’s not really my problem- so watch out for the bang.
Thanks for the investigative work, Pink ! I wondered why everything went silent over at askthebigot the past 5 days. I was rather enjoying pointing out her scriptural errors. 🙂
Watch this space…! More to come soon. People don’t become historians because they’re bad at research 😉
I think you may need to get out a bit more. I think if the truth be known there are a great many more people who are opposed to gay marriage than you would like to believe. It’s just that if they stand up and speak out against it they are instantly labelled as a right winged homophobic bigot. So rather than wading into the debate they tend to say nothing.
All the polls disagree with your myth.
I think polls can be construed depending upon who and where the polling takes place. Every state that has put gay marriage to the people’s vote gay marriage has been rejected.
It doesn’t matter if the majority of people do oppose gay marriage. Why not?
Because no one has the right to keep another adult from marrying because they don’t happen to approve of their partner. This whole gay marriage debate shouldn’t even be up for debate.
If you don’t like gay marriage, fine, then don’t marry someone of the same sex. But don’t try to force your asinine beliefs on someone else.
Caroline. Actually gays are trying to force their beliefs upon everyone else. As I have stated, anyone who disagrees with gay marriage is instantly demonized. Because gays want everyone to just pretend that gay marriage is as legitimate as heterosexual marriage, but it is not. This is why the courts are being used to force marriage upon people, because gays cannot win without strong arming people into accepting their lifestyle.
Kinda like freedom from slavery huh….. The South was overwhelmingly against the abolition of slavery and used their bibles to support their beliefs. Many pulpit preachers throughout the South stated it was a person’s “God Given Right” to own slaves.
Slavery and gay marriage are two very different matters. It was also Christians using their Bibles to free slaves. A person’s sexual orientation and ethnicity are two completely different matters.
“Slavery and gay marriage are two very different matters.”
They were both “biblical matters” Christians today see how horrible slavery was in the day but don’t want to take ownership in its existence.
You can’t have it both ways.
” It was also Christians using their Bibles to free slaves.”
And you have Christians today doing the same about homosexuality and yet you get “literalists” who want to demonize them.
Over the past 2,000 years Christianity :
No longer stones people for adultery, working on the sabbath, talking back to parents
No longer holds “Inquisitions” where people are given a choice, “repent or die”
No longer chastises scientists for claiming the earth revolves around the sun (Galileo)
No longer condones slavery
No longer holds witch trials
Why ? Because people have the common sense and conviction that “literalist views” of the bible are wrong.
You say slavery and homosexuality are 2 different issues. They both came out of the same book.
” You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” Matthew 7:5
When was the last time anyone tried to force you to get gay married? When two people marry each other, and you’re not a part of it- it’s really none of your business.
It is my business when gays sue people because they object to their behavior. It is my business when the gay lifestyle is taught in the public schools etc. I know gays hate anyone who objects to their behavior, but many people simply disagree with homosexuality. We don’t hate gays, and we don’t deny them the right to live together. We simply object to homosexuality.
Get over yourself. You’re interfering with MY FREEDOM OF RELIGION by asking me to follow the tenets of your religion. I don’t agree with Christianity, so keep it to yourself. I don’t hate Christians, I just want them to stop shoving their mythology in everyone’s faces all the time.
A Company of One:
“Because gays want everyone to just pretend that gay marriage is as legitimate as heterosexual marriage, but it is not.”
That is your OPINION that gay marriage isn’t “as legitimate”. Get it? And your opinion doesn’t trump someone else’s opinion just because you’re getting it from a religious text. Not everyone believes the way you do, and that’s our right not to.
I’m heterosexual and married. I can attest to the fact there is nothing sacred about hetero marriages. They aren’t special; they aren’t “divine”. Most married people cheat and most have several marriages over the course of their lifetime.
There is nothing natural about gay marriage. Basically gays are saying that their morality should take precedence over what has been established since the beginning of the United States. No one is suppressing them, or abusing them. We simply do not agree that marriage should be redefined to include gay marriage. If gay marriage is recognized as legitimate then every and any other form of marriage should be equally acknowledged, including polygamy etc.
Your ignorance is monumental. A marriage (or any other legal contract) is only of interest to the signatories. I don’t give a flying ______ if you have a pre-nup with your wife. It’s none of my business. I don’t care if you’re a partner in a company. I don’t care. What I do care about are my own contracts and what they mean to me. Because that regards MY legal/financial life.
And please don’t waste anyone’s time with the imbecilic polygamy/bestiality arguments. Gays aren’t asking for polygamy. That’s the slippery slope fallacy. Gays are asking for the EXACT SAME rights and responsibilities already contained within the four corners of a marriage contract.
A Company of One:
Once again,it’s just YOUR OPINION that being gay isn’t “natural” . How dare you presume that your opinion makes something fact.
What if we did allow polygamy? That’s the man’s problem if he wants to take on six nagging wives.
So what if there haven’t been gay marriages as an established tradition. We have had slavery, hangings for witchcraft, lynchings without trial, and we slaughtered the native americans whose land this actually was. Now that’s American tradition.
Times have changed. You sound like a dithering old fool. Join us in this century.
Talk about hysteria, wow! Perhaps you should take a look around at your so called free thinking no boundaries, anything goes morality and see see exactly where it has led us. This country is sinking in moral rot because people like yourself think that we are better off just making up our own moral beliefs as we go.
Sex is a private behaviour. The consensual adult sex a person had last night has no impact on their capacity for ethics, competence, kindness, or generosity.
There are a number of countries where gay marriage has been legal for many years and there’s been no difference in hetrosexual marriage rates, crime, abortion or prostitution- in fact a number of these countries have much lower rates of all of those things as compared to some where gay marriage is not legal.
So if there’s moral rot in your country, look at yourself first, because it has no relation to gay marriage.
A Company of One,
I am offended that you said I am amoral because I don’t believe the way you. Believing in an invisible super being doesn’t make you have better morals than anyone else. You just think you have better morals because you have a false sense of superiority due to delusional thinking that you are “in” with a non-existent magical being. LOL
I am a very moral, non-criminal, productive member of society, exactly the type of person a society needs to keep it functioning with a modicum of civility. Without people like me, who have a natural, strong moral compass, society would decay into chaos.
How is America sinking into “moral rot” when we once did the things I mentioned, like lynchings, slavery, gun battles at the OK Corral, native american slaughtering?
I notice you didn’t address any of that. That’s because our history doesn’t fit with your whole America-allowing-gays-to-marry-is-a-sign-we’re-sliding-into-amorality argument.
That video is outrageous, that smug asshole.
I’ve told Amazon for years to stop letting people rate books they clearly haven’t read. As a customer I find it very annoying. As an American I find it outrageous these groups push their agendas through fake reviews.
The Amazon thing is seriously outrageous. And the terrible thing is we all do look at the stars and the reviews.
This means that perfectly good/interesting work can be trampled on because someone doesn’t like your subject matter.
I wonder if To Kill a Mockingbird would’ve made it with people like that around?
And this stuff is spreading. The other day I saw a documentary about people using Trip Advisor reviews to smear the competition.
Not that it was a “good work” but Rielle Hunter’s book got slammed on Amazon by dozens of people who admitted they hadn’t read it. They were mad because she had an affair with a married man and were calling her “whore” and ugly stuff like that. Amazon just let it happen.
Yet, Marilyn Monroe is idolized…..
Absurd. When HE was the one who made a wedding vow…
That’s what I was thinking. Where’s the anger toward John Edwards? He’s the one who got another woman pregnant when his wife was dying of cancer.
Always interesting over here.
Just wait until tomorrow… I’m going for the jugular 😉
Do you need any advice about libel? I doubt it. That’s the advantage of being able to do thorough research.
Violet’s point about Starbucks is interesting as the smiling welcoming Mr F has a blatant ad for Starbucks on his profile.
Here’s something about Starbucks which claims to be oh so ethical:
http://www.justmeans.com/blogs/starbucks-most-unethical-coffee-chain-in-the-uk
It’s taken from an article in Ethical Consumer (it’s UK based). I used to subscribe to Ethical Consumer for many years. It’s an excellent way of finding out which companies abuse workers, don’t allow union rights, fund political companies, who is the overall owner of a company etc etc They take their research very seriously and always cite sources, plus for an additional subscription, they would also provide you with a supplement with further info about the companies rather than the summary articles in the magazine.
I knew there was a reason at the back of my mind why I didn’t like Starbucks.
I’d have replied to company of one but you’ve all been there before me 😀 except to say ‘gays are trying to force their beliefs on everyone else’. Um, now what could that possibly remind me of? Did you read the brainwashing the children page incidentally on the grace website? Evil, sheer evil.
The 1734 Zenger trial established truth is the absolute defence against charges of libel 😉
If it’s true, it’s not libel.
I did say I doubted it. Nor can you libel the dead but it would appear this lot are still alive and kicking. However personal opinion is not libel either which is why blogs are interesting grey areas. I see Ms F has decided to pip you to the post and write about herself. I haven’t checked whether she ever answered my question yet, I’m too busy reading her egotistical post and her links back to Violet and others. How to waste my time yet again 😀
[…] out from the same geolocation. On some occasions, from the same IP. I put that together with my previous knowledge of how these hate groups operate, and the rest is […]
kcchief1 Your understanding of history is quite distorted. If you are going to point to the bad things that professing Christians have done then you need to give equal time to all of the good that Bible beklieving Christians have done as well.
What unusual equation is that? Since when does doing something good compensate for doing something bad?
Sorry, your honour, I killed a man, but I’m so nice you just have to let me go free!!!
pinkagendist And frankly I don’t really care what you think. I am saying that gays should not be giving equal status because gay marriage is not equal to heterosexual marriage. Gays cannot reproduce apart from those of the opposite sex which is ample evidence that it is not a natural behavior. No amount of name calling and ignorant tirades by gay activist like yourself makes you right. Gays want to be respected and treated with respect yet refuse to treat those who disagree with them with any respect. The gay marriage debate would be dead in the water if you could not get leftist judges to legislate this agenda and force it upon the rest of the nation. Gay marriage is a classic case of the Emperor’s New Clothes. So go ahead and swear and call me names. Isn’t that the way you get everyone to just shut up and go along with you?!!
I’m not sure if you’re fantastically ignorant by accident or by choice .
Are you saying a gay marriage is unequal to Britney Spears’ 24 hour Las Vegas HETEROsexual marriage? Or are they less valid than the Kardashian reality-tv, get paid to get married on video marriages? Or perhaps the Anna Nicole Smith, marry a rich man at the doors of death, for profit marriage? Are those the magnificent (sacramental) HETEROsexual marriages you’re referring to?!
As I said before, get over yourself, you fool. Gay people pay taxes and contribute to society. We have jobs, we have families, we own companies, we have employees. When my partner’s mther was dying with dementia it wasn’t your arrogance and prejudice who cared for her, it was me, her gay son-in-law. When my nephew needed help paying for college it wasn’t your bigotry that helped him, it was his gay uncle & partner.
You’re living in some sort of narcissistic fantasy where you think the world revolves around you. Well let me clarify, I, as most gays, couldn’t care less what the hell you think- try living your own life and getting your nose the hell away from the private legal and sexual lives of others.
No one needs your ‘permission’ to choose who to marry.
Your examples are evidence of the moral decay that is taking place in this country because people want to live by their own made up set of morals. This is exactly what happens when Postmodernism rules the day. This anything goes morality is destroying the fiber of the family, and the stability of our country. The examples of caring for your mother or your nephew have really nothing to do with the fact that you’re gay. I think actually it is gays that think the world owes them the right to marry, but we don’t. You are not oppressed, you are not abused, and you are not being denied anything other than equal marital status. What you really want is everyone to pretend that your behavior is as normal as heterosexuality, but it simply is not.
LOL- I want nothing from you but that you live your own life and stop sticking your nose in the private sex and legal lives of others.
I live in a country where gay marriage has been legal for nearly a decade.
As you say being gay has no bearing on being able to care for someone or being a decent person- that’s why you’re contradicting yourself by going on to call it immoral. Religious morality has nothing to do with ethics. Freedom of religion means no one has to follow the dogma of your religion- and if you think we do, I suggest you put your mother up to be stoned by Muslims who believe not wearing a veil is immoral.
If I may:
Homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. How do I know? It exists. What you really want is to specify a subset of normal behaviour, which you can arbitrarily call disgusting, and so feel superior; and have someone to be nasty to, if they disagree.
That sounded oddly like me 😀 😀 😀
Mmm. I’m just looking at chin and eye shape, in those wee gravatar photos. I think we’re different people…
No. I checked the IP addresses. That’s a relief.
LOL 😀
The only ones really being nasty are gay activists, They are the real bullies. I am not the one who called these people names or cussed at them because we disagree, Most gays I have met on the web are simply nasty people who act like a two year old who can’t have their way. They like to paint the picture that they are poor helpless and oppressed, when actually they are mean spirited, filthy mouthed, God haters. This is why they smear anyone who dares to in any way object to their behavior.
I’m neither helpless nor oppressed. I’m a tax paying citizen, and contributing member of society and my family. I’m entitled to freedom of religion and you can’t force me to follow the tenets of yours.
If you don’t have sex or think some sort of sex is wrong, then simply don’t try it- but get the hell away from other people’s lives. No one need your permission and consent to sign legal contracts that only involve the signatories.
Get a life.
Pedophiles exist too. Should we sanction that behavior? How about people who want to marry their dog? What if someone wants to marry their sister or brother? In the Postmodern world any behavior is completely left to whatever anyone wants to do.
[…] https://pinkagendist.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/internet-shills-beware-of-the-fake-debate-what-to-keep-… […]
pinkagendist You can have sex with any consenting adult that you want. No one is denying you that right. However there is such a thing as the First Amendment, that by the way guarantees me the Freedom Of Religion. That means that if I object to homosexuality on moral grounds you don’t have a right to force me to marry you, take pictures of your wedding, hire you on staff to my church, Boy Scouts, or any other private organization. It also means that I have a right to object to your behavior whether you like it or not without being taken to court because of it. So stop trying to push your sexual orientation down my throat and everyone else s who doesn’t wholeheartedly embrace your behavior. By the way we refuse all sorts or behaviors in society that we deem morally unacceptable, such as having sex with children, polygamy etc.
Dear Co1
Firstly, I think I should say, that I am a woman, in a heterosexual marriage of some 29 years. I really don’t think I should have to say this to anyone as my marital relationship is only of concern to my partner and myself and legal organisations. However this marriage thing appears to be a big issue to some people, so I thought best to preface my comment with that.
I am not gay. I am not a gay activist. No gay person forces their opinion down my throat.
Now, people – and I’m talking about more than one blog here – have written that loving homosexual relationships are wrong, sinful, unnatural, and that these sick people should be cured and engage in a heterosexual relationship. I am not saying you have said that. But other people have. So to say that ‘no-one’ is denying gay people the right to have sex with any consenting adult isn’t strictly accurate.
Homosexuality is illegal in a number of countries. Some church groups wish homosexuals to stop having same-sex relationships. From that it is not unreasonable to extrapolate that, in fact, some people, again, I’m not saying you, are denying the right for gay people to have sex with consenting adults.
I can’t speak about American politics as I’ve never fathomed it out yet, so I’ll take your word that you can override the law and discriminate against people because of your religious beliefs.
To me, the point is not that gay people are trying to influence other people’s views about their sexual orientation, but they would appreciate parity under the law with other people and not be subjected to discrimination.
Rather, I see that religious groups wish to restrict the rights of gay people, and take back any that they have won after many years. At the end of the day, homosexuals are still a minority group and are a target for discrimination.
Incidentally I read a number of gay blogs, not because they are gay, but because they have interesting blogs and I find them to be perfectly reasonable polite people.
They are certainly not:
roughseasinthemed: “To me, the point is not that gay people are trying to influence other people’s views about their sexual orientation, but they would appreciate parity under the law with other people and not be subjected to discrimination.”
You don’t think that Hollywood is trying to influence people’s views about sexual orientation, really?
I realize that gays want their marriages recognized as legitimate under law. Yet to do so redefines the very definition of marriage to include every sort of union imaginable. Once you open that Pandora’s box there will be no closing it again.
While I realize that gay activists cannot tolerate anyone who does not wholeheartedly embrace their behavior I have to say that I see absolutely nothing natural about homosexuality. As a Christian man I am compelled by Scripture to love everyone, no matter what they do. Yet I am not compelled to endorse their behavior.
I have had friends who are gay, friends who were imprisoned for some very terrible crimes yet I do not hate them. People are bound by all sorts of behaviors that from a biblical perspective are simply ungodly. Yet as a Christian I am to love them and show them mercy. because God through Christ showed me mercy.
I have no ill will toward gays, yet cannot accept their behavior as normal. I realize that Western civilization continues to reject the Christian foundations that we were built upon yet to what end? If we continue to follow this path of anything goes morality it will completely destroy this nation.
I realize this is not a popular or politically correct opinion but here I stand I can do no other.
I have no idea what Hollywood is doing as it is not exactly something that influences my life. My life does not revolve around television or films.
So I can’t answer that one. Sorry.
It does not open a Pandora’s box at all. It treats all people equally. What is the problem with that?
I am NOT a gay activist, please respect that. I do however, think we should try to eliminate discrimination.
I don’t care what you think about homosexuality. You want to love people but yet you judge them?
I am not interested in your nation. But tell me why my ethical principles will destroy anything.
Tell me why a loving or atheist relationship causes damage to society. Tell me one good reason why you should victimise homosexuals? Tell me what damage I am causing to society because I don’t run my life by the bible?
I think it is very evident that since America has abandoned the absolute morals of the Bible that we are sinking into moral rot. There is much blame to go around including heterosexual immorality.
Fornication, adultery, homosexuality and every other sort of behavior that is not prescribed in Scripture are all growing from the same tree of sexual immorality.
1. 40% of births today are from unwed mothers.
2. We have the highest divorce rate of any nation on the planet.
3. We have the highest crime rate of any nation on the planet.
4. We have more people in jail than any nation on the planet.
The list hoes on and on. All of these are the direct result of a nation that has lost its moral compass.
Homosexuality is just one of many contributing factors to this ongoing decline of the family and the nation as a whole.
We judge against certain behaviors all the time because we recognize that they are destructive. Homosexuality would have never been considered as a legitimate lifestyle until about 30 years ago in this nation because people were not inundated by gay propaganda like they are today.
No one until just a few years ago would have ever seriously considered homosexuality to be a normal behavior. This is not judging someone, it is stating the obvious.
If your statement were true, countries that have allowed gay marriage would have seen their statistics affected by passing such laws.
Instead, there’s no change whatsoever, which means homosexuality has no bearing on ethics/morality- much less on drug-use, abortion rates, violent crime etc.
If America is descending into immorality, it’s on other aspects of your culture, not on gays.
Thanks for that thoughtful reply. I think *hope* I get what you are saying.
That all America’s problems are due to homosexuality and people not using the bible as a guide for their life?
You’ll have to bear with me as I’m not Christian so I don’t understand the need to have a little handbook that tells me not to steal, commit adultery, murder, lie, cheat, and all the rest of it.
1) 40% of births must surely be from unwed parents. It takes two. You could easily say that 40% of births are from unwed fathers? Or maybe they are married to someone else? But let’s lay the blame, if that’s what you are doing, on both sexes. Two people have sex. Two people have responsibility for contraception (if that’s allowed of course).
2) I can’t comment on your divorce rate. Maybe more people should have sex before marriage?
3) I’m sorry to hear about the crime rate. It may be something to do with the extreme differences in social classes and people who need to use crime to fund their life. Again, I have no knowledge of that. It would suggest an imbalance in society to me rather than a lack of bible studies.
4) That follows on from 3) doesn’t it? You also have the death penalty in a number of states don’t you? Perhaps if all states introduced the death penalty then you could get rid of people in gaol? Does that include Guatanamo?
I’m not sure that a high crime rate is due to homosexuality, or sex outside marriage. Plenty of people have sex without being married but that doesn’t turn them into criminals. Can you let me know why you think there is a relationship between crime and sex?
I have to say I do not feel that I am inundated by gay propaganda at all. But we don’t live in the same country so perhaps you do receive a lot of pro-gay publicity. I do, on the other hand, sometimes receive unsolicited religious mailshots in my mailbox.
I met gays at university more than 30 years ago. They were people, just like me. That is also stating the obvious.
pspruett – April 4, 2014 at 8:49 am
The bottom line explanation for the apparent hypocrisy of the gay apologists is that, in spite of the moral relativism they may otherwise express and the allergy to dogmatism they often exhibit, they actually believe that they are absolutely right and we are absolutely wrong. And not just a garden variety wrong, but an evil kind of wrong — a kind of wrong that doesn’t warrant toleration and which could only be explained as hate and bigotry because, you know, there’s no other possible justification for standing against what’s so plainly right to them. And, as they say, all’s fair in love and war. Normal rules of courtesy, integrity, and reason must yield to the socially just goal of progress toward the liberal ideal, which is their True and Good and the Beautiful. If only us Christians could be so dogmatic.
Religion again? Seriously? How many times does one have to repeat FREEDOM OF RELIGION?
roughseasinthemed: That all America’s problems are due to homosexuality and people not using the bible as a guide for their life?
1a. I did not imply that all of America’s problems are due to homosexuality. However every problem America is facing has a moral root to it. Homosexuality is just one among many of the moral failures we are facing. It is no greater than people living together apart from the commitment of marriage.
You’ll have to bear with me as I’m not Christian so I don’t understand the need to have a little handbook that tells me not to steal, commit adultery, murder, lie, cheat, and all the rest of it.
1) 40% of births must surely be from unwed parents. It takes two. You could easily say that 40% of births are from unwed fathers? Or maybe they are married to someone else? But let’s lay the blame, if that’s what you are doing, on both sexes. Two people have sex. Two people have responsibility for contraception (if that’s allowed of course).
1b. I was not making a sexist statement. Actually men bear a greater responsibility since they are cranking out children and then abandoning their responsibility as fathers. This again is a moral failure.
2) I can’t comment on your divorce rate. Maybe more people should have sex before marriage?
2a) There are a number of reasons for this. When I grew up there was a stigma to getting divorced. People thought it was shameful, and we had a great deal fewer divorces. Today no one even blinks when people get divorced.
3) I’m sorry to hear about the crime rate. It may be something to do with the extreme differences in social classes and people who need to use crime to fund their life. Again, I have no knowledge of that. It would suggest an imbalance in society to me rather than a lack of bible studies.
3a) I don’t think you can use social class as an excuse for crime. Just because people have a lack does not mean they need to turn into criminals. It is moral restraint that keeps people from turning into barbarians. By the fear of God men depart from sin. (including crime) When people have been taught that there is no God and no purpose other than our temporary existence there is very little left to restrain them.
4) That follows on from 3) doesn’t it? You also have the death penalty in a number of states don’t you? Perhaps if all states introduced the death penalty then you could get rid of people in goal? Does that include Guatanamo?
4a) I hope you are being sarcastic. The courts of the United States are also corrupt because of a lack of judicial restraint. Corrupt lawyers, lack of true justice. Nearly every area of American life is decaying because we have ignored God. The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.
I’m not sure that a high crime rate is due to homosexuality, or sex outside marriage. Plenty of people have sex without being married but that doesn’t turn them into criminals. Can you let me know why you think there is a relationship between crime and sex?
4b) I am not implying that having sex apart from marriage turns people into criminals. I was just siting the fact that America is degrading because of a lack of moral restraint. However pornography is a direct contributor to crimes against humanity because it a a direct contributor to sex trafficking.
I have to say I do not feel that I am inundated by gay propaganda at all. But we don’t live in the same country so perhaps you do receive a lot of pro-gay publicity. I do, on the other hand, sometimes receive unsolicited religious mailshots in my mailbox.
5a) I think the message from the media in America is loud and clear. Being gay is just as normal as baseball, mom and apple pie. I simply disagree. I know that is not politically correct, but I believe the majority of Americans share my sentiments.
I met gays at university more than 30 years ago. They were people, just like me. That is also stating the obvious.
5c) Yes they are. However. this is not the issue. The issue is gay marriage, and should the federal government redefine marriage to include gay couples. I do not believe that it should. This has nothing to do with gay folks being nice people. It sets a precedent that is in the long run harmful.
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