Here, Dissent & Debate Are Encouraged
by pinkagendist
Yesterday I was observing Carolinagate. Carolina Courtland is a very funny blogger, also very insightful. She gives relationship advice, but not the mushy ‘how the world should be‘ advice that doesn’t actually work. She talks about the world and how men and women interact in real terms. She talks about male expectations as they really are. She also talks about female expectations as they really are. She also notes how some feminists get it wrong by proposing that those expectations are the same. Gender imposes a complex variety of natural-born and social circumstances. I had relationships with (a number of) girls/women for years and with (a much higher number of) men for more years. The interactions and expectations were entirely and invariably different. In the heterosexual relationships my partners expected me to conform to the traditional male stereotype. I was to be the protector, the driver, the bill payer, the one who killed the spider, changed the flat tire, made the reservations, ordered at the restaurant; If the car broke down I was the one dealing with the mechanic- and the list goes on. Fascinatingly this happened in a post-feminist world. That meant I was also expected to be sensitive, to talk about feelings, to listen to them talk about feelings endlessly. To help in the kitchen. To not roll over and turn on the television after sex. To not just get up and make myself a sandwich after sex. To enjoy her friends’ company. To be friends with the guys that went out with her friends.
During my hetero engagement, expectations weren’t just clear, they were laid out for me. Procuring (and paying for) the home was my responsibility. Decorating it was hers. Meanwhile I was also told we lived in a modern world so ‘why should the bride’s family pay all the wedding expenses’. When I met the guy who went on to become my first boyfriend, it was like being set free from a lifetime of captivity. What? Shared bills? No long silences where I have to spend hours guessing what I did or said wrong? I can say someone is attractive and you won’t spend days sulking? You’ll kill a spider yourself and you won’t screech while doing it? Sweeping generalizations aside, there are concrete differences in men and women. Sex is treated very differently by men and women. So are so many other things including the roles that are imposed on men and women. Pretending it isn’t so is just that, pretending. And this is where we get back to Stephen Fry’s quote on offence. Carolina Courtland does a funny crazy-cat-lady scale. She scores women whose online dating profiles are so finical they’ll probably end up with crazy-cat-lady status. One such person posted a satirical profile (she says) on her blog and Carolina awarded her four litter boxes on the crazy-cat-lady scale. Terrible offence was taken. All sorts of accusations were made with an implicit message that people have some sort of right to not be offended. Ridiculous. There is no such right, no such rule, no such anything. Carolina can say what she wants, Charlie Hebdo can print Mohammed cartoons, I can promote Jesus the Musical. My new sparring partner RoughSeasOnTheMed can accuse me of using misogynistic language and I can call her a tree-hugging vegan and we can both survive (and even enjoy each other). Albeit, she’s British and on this side of the Atlantic we’re not so easily offended. My message is: If you don’t want people disagreeing with you or evaluating the information you choose to make public, making said information public isn’t the best way to achieve it.
I hope no retraction is made by Carolina; But if it is, I hope it comes in the spirit of Voltaire:
“They say I must retract. Very willingly. I will declare that Pascal is always right. That if St. Luke and St. Mark contradict one another, it is only another proof of the truth of religion to those who know how to understand such things; and that another lovely proof of religion is that it is unintelligible…”
First, I love Stephen Fry he’s a master at cutting through the bullshit. If you can truly not worry about offending, then you are set free and probably least likely to offend anyone. Last, the Voltaire quote is priceless.
More people should read Voltaire. A lot more. A while back Obama made a reference to ‘…best is the enemy of the good’, and a number of newspapers printed it as if they were his words rather than a quote. Appalling.
I can’t be bothered to get into the offended debate so I’ll hit on a
couplelots of other points.1) Thank you for the shout-out
2) You can call me what you want as long as it is accurate. Tree-hugging vegan isn’t technically, as I am not vegan. Nor do I hug trees, although you know I am a freely confessed environmentalist. Nor would I call your language misogynistic. Sexist yes, but I haven’t noticed misogyny in there. (Yet!)
3) I have no idea who you were engaged to (why did you get engaged??) but she was clearly the wrong person for anyone. My partner and I agreed I could earn more money on a regular salary so our house was bought basically by me. Who cares? I chose the houses too. His role was in decorating and selling them. My parents bought my frock, (scarlet) and we paid the registry office fees. We don’t kill spiders. I do demand he kills the cockies, unless I am around on my own when I will reluctantly do it (you have seen Naked Lunch I take it?) We both discuss attractive people, of whom I have to say, there are very few.
4) What has being British and on this side of the Atlantic got to do with it? Does that mean I am more or less likely to be offended? Have you noticed I am making this reply all about me? Isn’t that wonderful? (for me).
5) I had a similar discussion with an Aussie blog pal over on my Jimmy Savile post about opinions/disagreements on blogs. I’ve also read a couple of posts recently where people have moaned about other bloggers stealing their ideas. I mean, really. When will people learn there is no copyright on concepts and ideas? Am I going to sulk because I think you read the aforesaid exchange and stole the idea? Or that you had read and commented on my previous trolling post? which was also about considerable dissension
Finally – I see you had relationships with girls and women. No ladies?
Oh, not finally. No-one orders for me at a restaurant. I am not mute and I can decide for myself what I want. And I prefer to order the wine too. Do what you want after sex, just don’t wake me up. Certainly feel free to make your own sandwiches.
That is sufficient for now.
Love, your sparring partner from down the road.
2. Tree-loving vegetarian?
3. I got engaged because that’s what I thought was what everyone had to do. When we’re very young we do very stupid things… I was particularly prone to doing stupid things.
4. Sarcasm, irony, satire are second nature to the British and Continentals. Look up the lyrics of Alanis Morisette’s ‘Isn’t it Ironic’- it’ll make you laugh.
No, no ladies
2. OK
3. Bu why get engaged at all? Still, yes it was stupid.
4. I don’t understand those lyrics. I think the British do sarcasm, irony and satire far better than anyone else. We don’t do much better these day, but I think we get gold on all those.
After all, you did quote Stephen Fry.
While we’re on the subject of dissent, I thought a lot of the comments on CC’s post as linked about the date adverty were valid (ie hers and yours). I read back and decided I need to leave a blog alone that refers to women as sluts, ie Marilyn Monroe. Seriously. Now whatever you and Stephen Fry – and Carolina – think, that is downright offensive and derogatory.
I’ll go into it in more detail should you wish:) That is one hell of an anti-feminist blog. ‘How to get your man’. Great. But do we even want one? Yes, well, written and honest/open.
Is it offensive and derogatory because you believe promiscuity is bad? I don’t, and as a former male-slut I’ll defend people’s right to sluttiness ’til the end
Er, where did I say promiscuity is bad per se? I think I’ll write about it on Clouds. Although I can’t claim your experience. Anyway it will have to wait because I want to write about God right now
You said the word ‘slut’ is offensive. My question is what aspect of it do you find offensive? That it relates to promiscuity?
No.
Cornered, my dearest neighbourly sparrer
I bought Seitan today for the first time ever… any suggestions?
Cook it?
With? How?
OK I’ll be serious in a minute, just got to finish off god
finally written about promiscutiy, darling
Ahhh, the wonderful Stephen Fry. He could make a phone book reading interesting.
Not all women are like your scary sounding ex-fiance, I kill my own spiders and fix things that need fixing. We are both allowed to say someone is attractive without offence being taken by either side. I hate the kind of women who immediately develop complete helplessness when they have a man in their clutches.
In hindsight she was a total b…- but there are still a lot of women who develop this helplessness. Have you noticed some even do a little girl voice?
I know a number who are exceptions to the rule, but the rule is still encouraged.
Haha! Little girl voice. For some reason my partner has always attracted small cute blonds who do that. Of which, needless to state, I am not one.
It’s not a rule it is societal expectation – * jumps rapidly back onto feminist soapbox *
Ha! Thank you. That’s THE POINT. It’s a ‘societal expectation’. Acknowledging that reality isn’t a bad thing, it’s a good one. By pretending things are different, or using language to dissimulate what’s actually going on, we end up with an entirely warped vision of the world. Did you read this story: http://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2012-10-05/dimite-tras-decir-que-leyes-y-mujeres-estan-para-ser-violadas-1276470607/
I didn’t read that story. Needless to state I think the concept is appalling. Not violating the laws – but women?
I don’t use language to dissimulate. I use language to change views and perceptions.
I don’t deny the state of the world, I just think it needs to be different. Preferably in accordance with what I think.
And ‘societal expectations’ are just a manifestation of your male-privileged patriarchal world (for want of a more jargonistic feminist comment).
The little girl voice! Grrrrr… I hate that! I know of a woman who uses various versions of it at all times and I can’t be within earshot of it without wanting to strangle her.
When she is speaking to her daughters she sounds like a young girl but when she speaks to her sons she puts on an even younger and girlier one, clearly giving them the authority in the relationship even though they are small boys. It completely horrifies me and the behaviour of those little brats shows how wrong she is to do this.
Ah yes, societal expectation. Females are girly and men are manly, if you stray from the path you just don’t fit in. I have done my own experiments with those expectations. I am not very tall, am.. ahem, well-endowed. and have long hair. Put on a tight top and men open doors and offer me their spot in queues etc etc. Tie the hair up and wear workboots and a daggy shirt and things are different. I have to keep my mouth shut though, I definitely don’t do the girly voice!
PS That was one hell of a debate on Carolina’s – even I couldn’t work out where to jump in with my over-educated, over-45, sagging opinion!
It was… and a childish one at that. A long time ago, when I had a dating profile, I realized that if I dumbed it down and included things like my zodiac sign and penis size, I got a lot more responses than if I mentioned my interest in allegorical tapestries and baroque art
– such is the nature of the average person.
I’m not that into baroque art, but I’d be happy to discuss other art, and tapestries. Zodiacs and penises? Please, who wants to know that? Oh did you mean width or length?
(of tapestries I mean)
I love Voltaire..
We should ALL love Voltaire
That was another excellent post from you, as usual.
I did apologize for hurting Kim’s feelings, but not for the post itself.
It is my right, and the rights of anyone living in a free society to express their opinion about something that is out in the public. And, we don’t always have to say something complimentary.
I don’t think the prevailing attitude of the dissenters was that they had the right not to be offended. I think it was more that they were taken aback at the nature of the post. I think it’s fair to say the original dating profile post was a joke and it seems as though Carolina took it to be genuine. I don’t follow Carolina’s blog, and I really don’t have a feel for the way she runs her blog, so I could be wrong.
For me, what I found so displeasing was the idea that somehow the author of the original post was some sort of sad sack woman who would never find a man because she wasn’t going about it in a specified manner. Say the original dating profile was genuine. I know plenty of men that would have loved the dry wit it was written with. The first words I said to Husband were, “Men suck.” It was real. He got me. We’ve been together for over twenty years.
The whole idea that there is one prescribed way to catch a man is demeaning to both men and women. There are all kinds of types and I have found if you are real, you find your type. Gawd, if I see one more fake breasted, lip plumped, over-bronzed blonde in the world I’ll wretch. There’s more to being a woman than that and there’s plenty of men who want the something more.
I also think what went wrong was that these two don’t seem to have had a history together. They haven’t had time to feel each other out, so Carolina may have meant it as humor, but it could have easily been taken as an insult. I remember one time you commented on SM’s blog. A woman said something about her goal for life being to grow with her child and you replied with a smart ass response. Now had you said that to me, I would have met you with a similar smart ass response and we would have laughed and laughed, but we’re familiar with each other. That woman probably didn’t know you and it could have felt offensive when she was just trying to be emotional and open.
In the end, I think you have the right to write whatever the hell you want, but that doesn’t excuse you from getting hell for it. And readers have the right to not like what you write and let you know in spades. No one shut Carolina down, her post is still there. Some people didn’t care for the spirit of the post and they let her know, some unfollowed. Every one was well within their rights as far as I’m concerned. And the days will go on, we’ll all survive, until the next interweb scuffle.
“Now had you said that to me, I would have met you with a similar smart ass response and we would have laughed and laughed, but we’re familiar with each other”- My point is that that’s a much better attitude. I find over-sensitivity hugely annoying, especially when that over-sensitivity is rewarded with coddling and over-protection.
When people land here with sarcasm, aggression or whatever, I don’t see it as personal . Some people like lychees, others prefer pineapple. That’s the nature of the world. When we’re young we personalize it. I remember obsessing over why _____ or _____ weren’t madly in love with me when I was young(er)- then eventually I made the jump and realized that I wasn’t madly in love with a couple of other blanks who ‘were’ in love with me. Light-bulb moment. It’s not all about me, the world doesn’t revolve around me. I’ll presume good-will and wait to be proven wrong.
If anyone calls me a man-slut or male-whore, I’ll say: absolutely, but unfortunately, not any more, I’m too old- at this point it would be undignified. I’m certainly not going to spend hours ‘fuming’ over it because my value isn’t determined by another person’s perception.
That’s crucial in all of this because the ‘offended’ are displaying an exceptional sense of insecurity. Why do you care what I think about your prophet?
But I think that comes after you’ve built a relationship with another blogger. I’d know you only meant something like that to be funny. If I didn’t know you, it can feel like a right hook. Basic respect, that’s all. I don’t think that’s coddling or oversensitivity.
I get that but there’s no ‘entitlement’ to any respect, basic or otherwise. The idea of ‘policing’ thought, opinions or discourse is entirely unreasonable. We should let ideas rise or fall on their own merits rather than on who they may offend.
The Mohammed cartoons, whether the Danish ones or the Hebdo ones were both great. The recent Mohammed movie was ridiculous. The concept of ‘offence’ removes the crucial step of allowing us to evaluate actual ideas. That is both coddling and over-protective.
But here’s the thing, nobody is policing her. The post is still there. Even though the person it was written about didn’t take it too kindly, the post is still there. Even though people unfollowed Carolina, the post is still there. People chose to let her know their thoughts, they unfollowed if they felt it was necessary, Carolina goes on to write another day. Nobody shut her down, nobody ran to mommy and daddy (wordpress). The process worked itself out. So just because people were offended by it then they are oversensitive? Everyone has a threshold. They draw their own line, it’s not for anyone else to tell them where to draw it. And that sir, is neither coddling nor over-protective. It’s the natural blogging order. Oh snap.
Sorry, Fish, but the attempt was precisely to ‘shut her up’. To retract. It was for her to fall in line with what other people deemed reasonable according to arbitrary standards. This dancing around that fact is dishonest, it’s actually dissimulation. This idea that there’s a wordpress ‘standard’ is also absurd. On wordpress you can find white supremacists, pro-jihadi, Christian dominionists and a whole range of other partisan, biased ideology promulgators. The idea that what Carolina wrote (in the words of one of the commentators) wasn’t ‘in the spirit’ of wordpress is childish if not absurd- as was most of the discussion on this issue on her blog, as was the behaviour of the woman who was terribly pseudo-offended by what I said on S/M which was so obviously a joke to anyone with an IQ of over 75.
And yes, if they were offended because they were incapable of comprehending the main point they are indeed over-sensitive; Perhaps under-educated; Perhaps insecure. And also, yes, we can draw the line at common sense and reason. A logical analysis can adequately separate what is an ideological discussion and what is a personal attack.
I’m not dancing around any facts. There is no fact to dance around. There’s your take on the situation and mine. This is all as subjective as determining which flavor of ice cream is the most delicious. So the people that took offense were under-educated and insecure? What does that make Carolina who took the application as truth, when it was meant to be sarcastic? I don’t agree with her main point, whether she knew the application was a joke or not. I don’t agree with the way she went about it. And, so what? I love how it’s expected that she can write whatever he hell she wants, but when she gets heat it’s viewed as her being shut down. As if she’s going to close up shop because some of her fellow blogger professed their dismay. And we’re the ones that are hypersensitive?
Perspectives may be different, but not facts. There is a tremendous difference between the active and the passive. The concept that a Muslim chooses not to draw Mohammed or that he wishes to impose that others submit to his ideology and follow it by also not drawing Mohammed. I get that people want to be liked, they want to have audiences. But what happened at Carolina’s blog was a childish display of mob mentality. ‘She’s my friend and you can’t say anything about her’. C’mon, you’re an intelligent adult.
This faulty logic has been used to silence people for centuries. Blasphemy this, infidel that. Don’t say it because it offends me. So, yes, the people who were offended were over-sensitive. If my About Me page mentions I did porn I can’t get upset if someone makes a porn joke. I put it out there. If I write a satire of a dating profile and someone uses it as an example of what’s a bad idea as a profile, I should be prepared for it. Unless of course, that was a lie. In which case I can see why someone would be upset.
In any event no one needs to agree with her main point. It’s her perspective. No one needs to agree with my homosexuality. No one needs to enjoy my humour. They’re free to move along to things that better suit them. Where things go wrong is in the interference. That’s ‘my’ central point and why I put down offence (in these cases) to lack of education and/or insecurity. I don’t depend on another’s approval of my life to live and be the way I choose. I accept that it wouldn’t be, and more importantly, doesn’t have to be, to anyone’s taste but my own.
Ok, so we agree to disagree. Now can we get back to gorgeous pictures of your dogs and move on? I’ve had a few and my resolve is weak.
On seitan.
1) Check the sell-by date. Spain is notorious for passing the fecha de caducidad. Without reducing the price!!
2) Treat it like any beef dish.
3) eg beef stroganoff, any beef casserole, goulash works well but any french style daube, spanish style fritter, sandwiches (again fried), you get the idea
With pasta, with rice, it really goes with anything if there is no gluten intolerance.
Did you buy jar or fresh? Fresh is often better. But jar works well and doesn’t have a sell-buy date problem. I’ve not added seitan recipes to my blog suppose I should.
Ask me for more info if you really need it. Next you will be trying tempeh!
Did you get in Soto or Estepona? There is a good herboristeria in Este.
I think I will write a separate comment about the Carolina post
I got it fresh from Supercor. They have a new counter with this stuff. They also have soy-burgers which we had tonight. Not bad. What’s tempeh, what does it taste like?
How much was it? Can’t believe supercor are doing that. How trendy is Soto or what ?
Seitan is good. Keep trying it. There is a restaurant in Los Boliches – Vegetalia – that does superb fritters.
Soyburgers? depends on the ingredients.
Tempeh is fermented soya beans. One of my faves. It’s got texture and absorbs flavour when marinated, eg, garlic, onion, tamari. Works well as sub bacon
I buy it in barras in Spain around 6€ for 500mg. Search tempeh on roughseas as I have written about it.
On Carolina’s post.
I thought there was an awful lot of sucking around our pals syndrome.
I also thought anyone who expected and said someone should buy the first drink wouldn’t be worth bothering with.
When my current partner asked me for sex I arrived with a box of Chablis.
For you or for him?
He prefers beer tbh. But as he wasn’t offering drink (just sex) I figured I should take my own
I went ahead and married the fiancee (were our fiancees friends, at any point? They sound similar), and stayed married for almost eight years. Shortly after she left me, I realized that I felt like I had just gotten out of prison. Maybe that’s why I haven’t been actually doing anything to create a new relationship.
Have you figured out what’s behind the similarity? I think there are women (I’ve met many) who choose men who they know (subconsciously), that they have some control over. I see a clear pattern in women who end up married or in relationships with gay men.
We’re apologetic and go out of our way to please. A bit like they’re doing us a favour for being with us. That then turns into a cycle which in my case ended in terrible resentment. By the end of that relationship I had turned into a very unkind person.
[...] Yesterday I was observing Carolinagate. Carolina Courtland is a very funny blogger, also very insightful. She gives relationship advice, but not the mushy ‘how the world should be‘ advi… [...]
[...] part of the post is a response to an exchange with Pink, who wrote about his pal Carolina, who is somewhat antifeminist. On her blog she referred to Marilyn Monroe as a [...]