Sexual morality. Debating Stupid. Is it worth it?
by pinkagendist
Guilty as charged. I do it regularly. I feel it’s a personal responsibility. We, The Gays, were quiet for much of our history and that silence allowed for the propagation of myths and anti-logic- as can be seen in this discussion. The discussion in question didn’t happen in 1965, it happened yesterday. In it you can see the perversion of reason and the use of a barrage of fallacies including premises that are entirely disconnected from conclusions. It may seem pointless to debate people who have the IQ of a ripe melon, but if we don’t they continue promulgating untruths.
The background to the issue is a historical one. It’s a strange equation (generally religious) that attempts to create a link between sex and morality. It was invented by a patriarchal society in which women were considered property. As the concept evolved through the centuries it was perfected and the men making the rules adapted it to their particular cultures. Christianity and Islam embraced it as a very useful means of controlling their followers. If you wanted to control people, what do you think the most efficient way would be? I would suggest that we identify universal human desires and fears and then use them by creating an ideology that promises to give people what they want and protect them from what they fear. Another useful tool that serves to control followers is another universal emotion: guilt.
Guilt, as we know it, is a societal construct. In centuries past the larger men and women amongst us were equated with wealth. Today we equate being overweight with more negative factors and the result is that by doing so we induce guilt in many people. Guilt of their weight, guilt of eating, even guilt of existing. This tool was particularly well exploited by monotheistic religions. By attaching guilt to normal human desires they hold great power over their followers. Sexuality being of the most basic human desires means it also became a recurrent religious theme. It is to this day. In the religious model, sex which is technically something that gives people pleasure is transformed into something shameful, embarrassing and for the most part negative. Catholics went as far as to make the medically benign act of masturbation into the Sin of Onan (spilling the seed), although now they’ve changed their story a bit to make the ridiculous history of the sin seem (barely) less ridiculous. Women got the short end of the stick. Their sexuality was oppressed and repressed from every angle. Not so long ago even manifesting sexual desire was shameful for a woman, meanwhile the opposite was nurtured in men. The man was expected to be overtly sexual and virile. A married woman who had an affair was shunned from society, the reputations of men who had affairs suffered no losses.
The sexual revolution undid centuries of constraints, irresponsible expectations of female virginity (irresponsible because marrying someone with whom you never had sex is monumentally irresponsible and can lead to lasting disaster) and the debunking of the myths that associated sexuality with morality. It’s fairly embarrassing for humanity that it took us so long- it’s even more embarrassing that there are still people in society trying to make this irrational link. Morality has no relation to sexuality whatsoever. The person who had sex 10 times yesterday may be fantastically moral whilst Tomás de Torquemada (who probably never had sex) was one of the most immoral men of history. Sex and sexuality in and of themselves have no bearing on morality. The consensual sex you have doesn’t affect your morality in any regard, it doesn’t affect your ability to be honest, generous, kind, compassionate, helpful or empathic – and that’s what true morality is all about.
For an even better take on real morality:

Love is of humanity, not some invented god. It’s in us. We might not see it, but it’s the goal. If we were evil, bad, wicked, our chief aim as a species and as individuals would not be love. When man invented the gods, he imbued the gods with what he held highest. Love. But Christians, these Christians, want to control love, this innate aspect of being human. They want to control it, wrap it, present it as a narrative, and keep it exclusive. This, when love, actually, is all around
I agree with everything you say here. I do still get caught up in such discussions sometimes, but I’m really not sure if it does much good. I don’t think any amount of reason can make much impression on a melon. Good on you for trying though!
I think at the very least we leave a dissenting voice. So whomever reads the discussion in the future will also get a differing opinion and it may be the difference between them accepting the crock which is sexual “morality” or questioning it.
http://dogsharon.com/2012/08/15/10-things-i-love-about-gay-men/
Trolling can be quite fun. On Fundamentalist websites, I post how I would rather go to Hell than to Heaven with them and their horrid God, and see acres of zealous bullshit, taking them hours. But I prefer commenting where we can agree, mostly. .It is reassuring.
I can’t imagine anything more fun than hell. And it’s good to know that we’ll meet eventually
is it Friedrich Nietzsche who said in heaven all interesting people are missing. I think hell is not bad at all
. lets meet there and have BBQ
That’s actually how i became an ex fundamentalist Christian: it was that moment where i realized i would rather be in hell than to worship a god that would send my fellow human beings to hell. It sounds simple but it was anything but easy for someone who grew up fearing hell and god to realize!
I forgot to say – brilliant post mate x
Yeah… Last time I hung out with Mario, we agreed that we’d live next door to each other in hell and grill outdoors all the time.
On a more serious note, I honestly believe that if I had had premarital sex I would have figured out that I want to have it with men instead of women sooner than I did. That would have saved me and a number of people I love a lot of misery, especially my soon-to-be ex-wife.
George Eliot was one of the most didactic novelists of the late nineteenth century, and she was an atheist. Morality and religion are not inseparable.
interesting comment.
I sometimes wonder if anyone can be truly moral until they have questioned their beliefs. If they run the gauntlet of logic and still believe at the end of it then I have nothing but respect for them. I have no respect for those who bleat about faith but don’t have the cajones to make that faith truly personal.
I’m an atheist but I like to think that I live a more moral life than most of those who go to church on Sunday. >>end rant<<
That’s the key. People have to understand true morality. If they rely on a religious scorecard that’s handed to them by interested (and manipulative) parties, they abdicate their personal responsibility to consider the effects of their actions.
Well said Pinky! Morality should be what you live by, every day of the week.
I completely agree with that. Blind faith is just a way of abdicating responsibility for your own thoughts.
I’m an atheist as well, perhaps it is because I don’t like anyone telling me what to do…
Right there with you Metan
-high five!-
It always annoys me when people assume that just because you aren’t ‘religious’ you can’t be a good person or do the right thing. At least we /choose/ to do the right thing freely.
-high five!-
It always annoys me when people assume that just because you aren’t ‘religious’ you can’t be a good person or do the right thing. At least we /choose/ to do the right thing freely.
p.s. and don’t do it just because we’re scared of fire and brimstone! ..ok, end rant now
I agree sex and morality do not meet anywhere except in religion. keep posting.
Entrenched attitudes are always the hardest things to change. No amount of reason or legislation can change them. The only thing that will work – eventually – is time and persistence. Keep chipping away at them Pinky, there are new generations coming through who will see sexuality for what it is – natural and none of their business!
At one point I couldn’t tell if those guys were really serious or not – especially when the second idiot joined in. A prime example of how NOT to argue..
There’s an inverse link between religiosity and education, the higher the one the lower the other